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Post by Jean B. on Mar 27, 2023 12:11:08 GMT -5
What do you think, should I build another couple of Horch roadsters? Bodied by Erdmann & Rossi, again? O.k., I can hear your "YES, hurry up" here at my desk, so I'm going to start right now.
Erdmann & Rossi was one of the few German coachbuilders - maybe the only one - who could really compete with Figoni and Saoutchik, the top designers of France of that era. The following type was perhaps the most elegant and modernistic creation E & R made. The fenders are already incorporated in the main body and had no seems anymore, the lines are reduced and flowing, the rear spats give a baroque detail, catching the eye. It is reported that E & R made four or five of this type, unfortunately it remains unclear if more than one has survived.
Here's the original drawing by Erdmann & Rossi. In fact it's no "black & white", I have a fac-simile in my books, and there we can see this drawing with red taillights, proving that the car was painted in grey shades.
This is the particular car which was displayed in Berlin during the IAMA 1939, thought as a successor for the 855 Spezial Roadster (my recent project). It followed the drawing, but showed some differences, though. The livery is very likely "black & white", the accessories like white-walls, white piping around the hood and around the seats (picture will follow), a popular combination for the '30s.
One car survived: After WWII it was taken by GI to the U.S. (like thousands others), but in 1973 a German bought the car and took it back to Germany. There are several photos, with a licence plate, so it really was used during that time!
This is the very same car, as it was sold again in 2001, and in 2006 it was presented in Pebble Beach, unfortunately "pebble-beached", that means "cleaned". All details were eliminated, the original bumpers were changed against blade bumpers which originally were only used for the Spezial Roadster, it got a two-tone painting although the design does not allow two-tone (there's no separation behind the belt-line).
This is one of the few cars we can definitely attribute to Hermann Göring, second top-Nazi. Here we can see him on the passenger seat. After my research it is likely that the car(s) on the previous pictures is indeed this Göring-car, but I cannot prove it.
The other cars of that series seem to be lost. There are photos on the www showing a metallic-grey/blue/greenish version, but I'm rather sure that this is a mock-up, perhaps made in Poland or the Ukraine.
The model is nowadays distributed by TinWizard, in an older version and the new "Pebble Beach version", both originally made by Western Models. Fun fact: when examining the model, I discovered that it was made after the design sketch (shown on top), and NOT after the original car!
This is the new version.
Changed in some details.
I put both models in one box, and now I have to separate them again as not all parts fit cross-over...
Quite a burner!
Do I really have to follow the building instructions? Well, we'll see...
First I have to mark all parts...
...for not getting confused about the two versions.
I asked TinWizard to send me another set of the old bumpers, as I don't want to make the pebble-beached version. They were so kind to do so, thanks!
Starting with the chassis, and of course my new wheels are much too big for the kit, so that I have to reduce the width of the chassis.
What the hell should this be? Well, I have seven models of the 853/855 series with three different wheelbases, and I'd like to have my models equipped the same way. The wheelbase of these two models are unfortunately too short, the body as well, and so...
...I have to make the old "virgin & saw" trick, this time in real!
Soldered together again, now having the correct wheelbase!
Only 1.6mm, but a big difference, as we will see soon!
The two body halves must be aligned exactly, so I made an according graphic on cardboard.
Model fixed tightly with glue.
MEEEOOOWWW!!!
The rare opportunity of making a four-door convertible
And now aligning the two halves onto another graphic, showing the new and longer wheelbase.
After soldering it looks rather rude...
...however, I'm very happy that it's fixed again!
Honed a little bit, but of course the fine works will start much later.... Now - at least for the first of the two models - we have an impression of the correct side line.
To be continued
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Post by Tom on Mar 27, 2023 12:26:30 GMT -5
Lengthening the body and chassis is a true work of art already! Why bother separating the parts? You will end up remaking everything anyway...
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Post by reeft1 on Mar 27, 2023 16:21:14 GMT -5
Bananas- buy models, saw them in half. I admire your bravery!
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Post by DeadCanDanceR on Mar 28, 2023 2:00:11 GMT -5
Horch cars are such excellent choices! And, according to this book… …Görings car is the dark one with whitewalls (the second photo that you’ve shown in your post). And, apparently it was painted dark blue.
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Post by Jean B. on Apr 2, 2023 11:48:28 GMT -5
Lengthening the body and chassis is a true work of art already! Why bother separating the parts? You will end up remaking everything anyway... Many times I was just about to do this job, but this time it couldn't be avoided! And yes, in the end hardly an atom of the original kit will remain, so you're right! But you know, simply "born this way"...
Bananas- buy models, saw them in half. I admire your bravery! I have to admit, I was a little bit sweaty before starting the saw... How do you say in English: Do or die!
Horch cars are such excellent choices! And, according to this book… …Görings car is the dark one with whitewalls (the second photo that you’ve shown in your post). And, apparently it was painted dark blue. Yes I have the book too, the old edition and the new edition which has a little more text and more color photos. Identifying each car is extremely difficult, perhaps impossible. Erdmann & Rossi list four consecutive chassis numbers, which may have all been given the same body and were built subsequently in a short period of time. The first of the cars with chassis no. 854261/comm. no. 3161 was the IAMA car. Goering was photographed with the car at IAMA, but it seems impossible that it was the same vehicle that was delivered to him. The IAMA car had running boards applied as shown in the following photo:
The car in which Göring was photographed, on the other hand, has molded or integrated running boards:
It is technically impossible to subsequently convert the body flanks in this way, since longer or larger metal sheets would have been necessary for the integrated running boards. It also seems questionable why Göring should have ordered the vehicle at the trade fair, but ordered other running boards for it. Rupert Stuhlemmer is an outstanding Erdmann & Rossi expert, but his expertise is not diminished if we assume that he does not know every single vehicle with all the associated numbers or assign them to each other. As for the color scheme: You write that the car was painted "dark blue". I'm not going over this bridge, as we say in Germany . The car has an interior that matches the exterior paintwork (white piping). Accordingly, this interior would have to have been dark blue, but 1.) the skins for leather interiors were usually beige/brown, grey, red or black, 2.) the "dark" paintwork could then also be interpreted as dark green or dark brown or any other colour. I still believe that black and white was a very popular combination at the time and makes the most sense overall with whitewall tires and white piping. If the assumption that the car was painted "blue" is based on the Göring hypothesis (which - as I have described above - is unlikely), then Göring's cars were painted "aviator blue", which was a darker grey-blue metallic , and of course not the paint of the IAMA car anyway, which was still unsold at the time of the exhibition. The vehicle belonging to Goering must therefore have been one of commission numbers 3162, 3163 or 3164. Today - as far as is known - there are still two vehicles of this type, the silver one, which was awarded in Pebble Beach, and a blue-green one in Latvia. Both vehicles have been changed a lot on the outside and interior, so that unfortunately they can no longer serve as a reference for comparisons. The Pebble Beach car was in mostly original condition until 2001 and was painted gray, there are still some photos in the books and on the internet.
And what's happened the last days?
The second car was stretched in the same way as the first one.
The chassis plate has received some additions, next step will be joining of baseplate and body. Stay tuned!
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Post by Tom on Apr 2, 2023 12:30:09 GMT -5
What an amazing job lengthening both cars.
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Post by DeadCanDanceR on Apr 2, 2023 15:37:54 GMT -5
Thanks for the long, well informed and very interesting answer to my comment! It's such an honour and a privilege to have members as knowledgeable as you, Jean!
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Post by alex on Apr 2, 2023 16:17:52 GMT -5
Nice fabrication work JB! I thought I was the only one crazy enough to saw models to pieces.
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Post by Jean B. on Apr 16, 2023 11:24:45 GMT -5
What an amazing job lengthening both cars. Always trying something new to keep you on the hook
Thanks for the long, well informed and very interesting answer to my comment! It's such an honour and a privilege to have members as knowledgeable as you, Jean! Thanks for your participating! Making research for a car is a major part of my vision of model-building. It's such a luck that we have the www nowadays! Think of the old times in the 70s or 80s, looking eagerly for car books, almost impossible to get foreign books in your own country. Mostly I write short memos for each car, as I am unable to remember everything I find out when studying a project at a time. And the stories of the Horch Erdmann & Rossi roadsters are quite thrilling!
Nice fabrication work JB! I thought I was the only one crazy enough to saw models to pieces. [/div] Must be contagious, is it?
Time to really get started: I always try to get a good stance of a model, and so I wondered if a certain "device", made of Lego bricks, would help to adjust axles, baseplate and body independently to each other.
As Lego buildings are perfectly straight and rectangled in any size, it's the perfect medium to determine center-lines, height and so on.
To fix the front axles, some Lego bricks must be modified
Fixing the body in the correct height is difficult, there must be a better solution...
...found it: Why travelling far abroad, when good things are so near - as we say in Germany Simple screws from the tool shop give a perfect car jack!
The inside of the body filled with putty, and then pressed onto the prepared baseplate, this way both parts fit perfectly together for the rest of the building process.
The baseplates are meanwhile completed,
at least for the current stadium of works.
After many weeks intermission, finally made a new p/e sheet. The lots of wipers are for the many car restorations I make for a Berlin dealer.
And again: it's perfect! It took only ten years to get this idea, so perhaps I'll have two or three further ideas for the rest of my life .
The model was designed in the 70s or early 80s, I guess, and obviously the master-maker had only the E&R sketch as a template, as the WM model meticously represents the sketch, not the real car. However, I'd rather prefer making the original cars, and comparing the model with photos (really perfect photos are always available at R&M Sotheby's) revealed that the rear fenders are much too short. So a p/e template helps to extend the fender tips and give the fender an authentic shape.
Of course this means that the complete rear end of the car has to be newly shaped...
To be continued!
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Post by oldirish33 on Apr 16, 2023 11:42:04 GMT -5
I'm sure you will have more than a couple good ideas in you Jean! 😉 I must visit the attic and see if any of the kids Legos are still up there. Using them as you have is also genius.
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Post by Tom on Apr 16, 2023 11:42:20 GMT -5
Those nuts and bolts as axle guides are genius! Love the rear wing extensions too, I'm sure they'll turn out perfect.
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Post by alex on Apr 16, 2023 16:31:37 GMT -5
Using the slotted bolt is a great idea.
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Post by reeft1 on Apr 17, 2023 1:31:32 GMT -5
Clever use of nuts and bolts
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Post by DeadCanDanceR on Apr 17, 2023 22:27:02 GMT -5
Amazing! Your attention to detail is simply unbelievable!
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Post by Jean B. on Apr 23, 2023 12:04:07 GMT -5
I'm sure you will have more than a couple good ideas in you Jean! 😉 I must visit the attic and see if any of the kids Legos are still up there. Using them as you have is also genius. ...yes, please do so! I've got mine stored in the attic, too. When I was a child I thought I'd own tons of Lego bricks, seeing it as an adult, it may be around five or six kilograms And lots of the old bricks are meanwhile bent or yellowish, so for "good" new buildings, I always order new ones... Those nuts and bolts as axle guides are genius! Love the rear wing extensions too, I'm sure they'll turn out perfect. Thank you! Yes, I'm pretty sure, too, that everything will turn out satisfactory With these models, I strictly have to follow the complete car from the tail to the radiator grille, step by step, and re-do every section of the body, as it seems. Lots of work! Using the slotted bolt is a great idea. ... and so cheap Clever use of nuts and bolts Thanks! Unfortunately I haven't got any time to claim a patent for this Amazing! Your attention to detail is simply unbelievable! ...and this is still the beginning of the project! Wait for the things to come! By using the already completed wheels for my Horch models I've almost ruined them > , so I finally decided to make some dummies for test purposes. Lots of work, again, but now I can mess around with the wheels without danger... First test how the models will stand on their feet. The sidewalls resp. the running boards will be slightly extended downwards. Next turn of p/e parts is necessary for going ahead... As the rear wings are now longer and deeper, the tail bottom also needs a new shape. This template will help. Fixed with 2K glue. Then completely covered with 2K polyester putty and honed, afterwards drilled a center hole for milling out the spare wheel. The spats are undoubtedly the design highlight of this car! I not only want to make a simple relief, but like to have filigree gaps between all louvers. The difficulty is that the gaps must be UNDER the top rods, so that the spats are closed when looking straight from the front and open when looking from the side. That's quite tricky to design and to etch...! For the first test I'm quite satisfied, hope that it will work also when painted...
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